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D&E rebuild / hybrid


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#1 Sparky_NY

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 06:37 PM

Its been a long time,   I have a D&E gun that was about 80% completed when I moved from New York to South Carolina.     Because of the practicality, I sold my machines, besides which I had no good spot for a decent shop at the new location in SC.   

 

Well, its almost 4 years now.   I built a 32X50 pole barn and a 20X20 room inside that for a shop.    I got a 20in swing CNC lathe,  a cnc bridgeport, a jet 13x40 manual lathe, a boyar schultz 612 grinder and a RF45 mill.   The shop is finally complete and I am MORE THAN READY to resume on the gat gun !!!!!!!  

 

As many know,  the DE gun has a LOT of shortcomings when it comes to being a reliable shooter.    A lot of people have tweaked things and improved it a bit but its somewhat like lipstick on a pig.      I have for some time had the notion of investigating the possibility of incorporating the RGG design internals into the DE housing to render a reliable shooter.    I have exchanged emails with Cutter on the subject and he seems to think its a reasonable project.     In the process, I intend to add a few of the improvements from the forum such as interchangeable barrels with the wedge clamp,  10-22 style extractors and flat firing pins, and Cutters drum magazine design.

 

The project is underway,  started yesterday studying drawings, revisiting my progress on the DE gun,  starting a list to order stock and hardware and other such preliminaries.

 

 

 

 

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#2 Roller

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 12:03 AM

Glad to see you back Sparky!  Looking forward to your progress.

 

Frank



#3 Sparky_NY

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 12:18 AM

I'm quitting for today,  spent enough money for one day  LOL      I ordered up 3/8 hex and tubing for the mainshaft in 303 stainless.   Ordered 3/4 dia 303 stainless for one piece bolts.   Ordered up some 2-1/4 OD DOM tubing with .125 wall for some new box cams.   Lastly, I ordered up a 3/8 hex 5C collet,  just because LOL

The D&E housing is threaded inside in the rear with a 32 tpi thread for the cocking ring to screw in.   That should work out nicely.   I am thinking I can make the RG design recoil plate threaded on the OD and screw it in, locking it with a single screw from underneath.   That will eliminate those pesky little 2-56 screws that mount the recoil plate to the box cam in the RGG design.    Because of the smaller housing diameter, its looking like the RGG design bolt will be 7/16 for the boss on the rear instead of 1/2 the RGG uses.      The bolt circle for the barrels is 1.5 on the DE gun and 2.0 on the RGG,  lengths of the housing and most other parts are pretty close,  its the difference in diameters mostly.



#4 Sparky_NY

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 01:51 AM

Spent a good part of the day learning fusion 360 and drawing up the DE housing with all its details, including the threads.   It made me pull out half of what little hair I have left but should be worth it in the long run.   

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#5 drhardin

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 02:12 AM

Very nice. I have been thinking of downloading fusion 360. I don't have much hair left and what there is is grey so we will see.



#6 Sparky_NY

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 02:21 AM

Very nice. I have been thinking of downloading fusion 360. I don't have much hair left and what there is is grey so we will see.

Go for it !     Its really not too bad to learn.   There are a ton of tutor videos and support out there.    It has a real nice CAM built into it that even does 4 and 5 axis.

 

The thing with solid modeling is that it allows you to test your designs and fine tune them before any metal it cut.   It a part does not fit or line up properly it shows.   Fusion can do photo realistic renderings which help people like me to visualize the design a lot better than dimensioned drawings.



#7 Sparky_NY

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 11:49 PM

Last few days working on model for barrel assembly with wedge clamp system.   Very slow going because just learning fusion 360.   Also,  things are VERY tight in the area for the barrel wedge clamps on a DE gun because of the smaller barrel circle.    Persistence finally paid off,  I got things to fit.

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#8 Roller

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 12:33 AM

Wow Sparky, I am impressed!  Wish I could do that.

 

Frank


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#9 Sparky_NY

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 12:57 AM

Wow Sparky, I am impressed!  Wish I could do that.

 

Frank

You built that gun and made it work !    You could do this also, no doubt about it.


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#10 Sparky_NY

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 01:03 AM

The RGG design uses a 3/8 hex mainshaft and hex bushings with a round OD pressed into the bolt carrier, front and rear barrel plates.    Those bushings are about $30 for one with shipping !

 

I am exploring the possibility of machining/broaching the hex holes in the parts directly.    Some stock I ordered came today, including the hex shafting.

 

For kicks,  I drilled a 3/8 hole in a scrap of 1/2 aluminum plate,   ground the end of a piece of the shafting nice and square and pressed it through the hole in the plate with my little arbor press. (1 ton harbor freight).   It went through pretty easy ma.de a nice hex hole !       Poor mans broach !

 

For the actual parts, I will first drill 1/16 holes at each corner of the hex shape,  then press the home made broach through.    A lot less material to be removed that way.    The bolt carrier, if made in 2 pieces is 1-3/4 thick for the biggest part, so relieving more material first will be a good idea.

 

I think it will work !

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#11 Sparky_NY

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 01:23 AM

I need to give a special thanks to Cutter, Roller and MANY others here on the forum.   Your work has been inspirational and gave me a lot of ideas that I am implementing.  

 

Cutter and I have exchanged emails where I got great ideas, too many to list.     The ruger type flat firing pins, extractors, barrel clamps and much more were Cutters designs, shamelessly stolen by me.

 

Again, thanks to all on the forum, and Dave for running the forum,  the information is priceless.


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#12 Sparky_NY

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 05:47 PM

Did a quick bolt carrier drawing, same length (3.00) as RGG, diameters changed to reflect smaller DE barrel bolt center. Bored in bolt carrier left at .281 for now as I test fit things.    The DE housing needs the smaller section of the ID opened up to 2.25 so its the same ID all the way through.

 

It appears that things will fit pretty well.   There appears to be plenty of room in the rear section of the housing for the cocking ring, gear drive and other items needed.

 

Looking at it,   the front section of the bolt carrier could be shortened up probably considering its going to be for 22 shorts like the DE design.  (I have 5000 rounds of shorts onhand!)

 

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#13 Timcor123

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 12:20 AM

Hello Sparky. Good to see you got your shop back up and running. This winter I got the oscillator finished on my D&E and built a small shroud under the gun to cover the extractor location. If you recall, I am using music wire extractors and they work very well however, twice I have a blown cases that bent the extractor outward. The shroud limits the travel and prevents the extractor from bending. If and when I remake the barrels, I will cut the extractor pocket so the cartridge case is surrounded 100%. Not realizing this early on in the design modification would have saved me a lot of headaches. I just didn't think that a .22 short would have that much pressure as to blow out the case in the unsupported area. I am using subsonic CCI target shorts and have 300 or so through the gun.

Just wondering. We're you able to put that housing drawing together in the same day you learned Fusion360? I have been considering 360 or the free, 2D cloud version of Draft-Sight. Last time I checked, Fusion was $300 or so. Not sure if a free version is available.

Your thoughts, Anybody.

Tim

#14 Sparky_NY

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Posted 28 February 2017 - 01:05 AM

Hello Sparky. Good to see you got your shop back up and running. This winter I got the oscillator finished on my D&E and built a small shroud under the gun to cover the extractor location. If you recall, I am using music wire extractors and they work very well however, twice I have a blown cases that bent the extractor outward. The shroud limits the travel and prevents the extractor from bending. If and when I remake the barrels, I will cut the extractor pocket so the cartridge case is surrounded 100%. Not realizing this early on in the design modification would have saved me a lot of headaches. I just didn't think that a .22 short would have that much pressure as to blow out the case in the unsupported area. I am using subsonic CCI target shorts and have 300 or so through the gun.

Just wondering. We're you able to put that housing drawing together in the same day you learned Fusion360? I have been considering 360 or the free, 2D cloud version of Draft-Sight. Last time I checked, Fusion was $300 or so. Not sure if a free version is available.

Your thoughts, Anybody.

Tim

Blown cases is something I considered,  I have 5000 rounds of high velocity shorts that I got years ago for the gun on a fantastic deal.     Part of my rebuild includes cutting the chamber pocket for the cartridge rim (see post#7 pic).    I will be using ruger style flat firing pins and extractors.

 

No, I did not do the housing the first day working with F360 but not far from it.   Fusion is pretty easy to learn, there are great tutors on youtube that speed things up.   I probably have been using fusion about 3 weeks now.    Fusion is free to hobby users, students, and startup businesses.   They have been constantly adding features to fusion since it came out,  4 and 5 axis capability is now included in the Cam functions.    I'd suggest watching a few of the youtube "getting started" with Fusion 360 videos,  that will give you a good feel for how easy it is.


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#15 Sparky_NY

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 02:19 AM

Got the gun along with all the modifications pretty much all solid modeled in fusion 360.     I did a rendering of the bolt carrier with bolts for fun.     I have the material as anodized aluminum for the bolt bodies and the carrier, thats why the pretty red  and blue.   You can see the ruger style flat firing pins and extractor, idea originated by Cutter.

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#16 Sparky_NY

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 12:41 PM

Quick update:   Started making some parts.     I remachined the housing, bored out the stepped ID so its the same all the way through like the RGG design,  also milled off the threads on the OD at the rear that are there to hold the rear Cascabel plate on.      I made up a new mainshaft, RGG style, out of 3/8 hex 303 stainless.   Made up the rear cascabel cover plate.   Finishing up the bushing, nuts etc for the shaft support at the frame front cross member.     My loose plan of attack is to make up the parts somewhat in the order they are assembled.

 

Nothing worth taking any pics of yet.      Both my cnc lathe and cnc mill are new to me so its extremely slow going as I learn the machines and their controls.   Getting faster each use.\

 

George



#17 Timcor123

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 12:21 AM

Hello Sparky, I downloaded Fusion 360 last week. Powerful software but frustrating just the same. Being new to any CAD I am so impressed with the design capabilities this has. I get so far with a design then fall flat when I try to edit. YouTube videos are great, make it look so easy, then reality sets in. Anyway, thanks for the heads up on this software.

Tim

#18 Sparky_NY

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 01:35 AM

Hello Sparky, I downloaded Fusion 360 last week. Powerful software but frustrating just the same. Being new to any CAD I am so impressed with the design capabilities this has. I get so far with a design then fall flat when I try to edit. YouTube videos are great, make it look so easy, then reality sets in. Anyway, thanks for the heads up on this software.

Tim

Hang in there, it takes time.    All softwares have a learning curve, F360 is no different,  its only been a week for you.    I thought it was hopeless at first but then I started grasping it and the rate of progress went up quick after that.   I highly recommend the youtube videos by Lars Christensen (works for autodesk).   Watch the getting stated videos and then draw up the same project yourself, referring back to the video when needed.     For editing, you can right click and edit each step (icon) on the timeline at the bottom of the screen.    Also, the undo and redo buttons come in handy.   On the left of the screen, in the list, you can right click sketches/bodies etc and a drop box with edit in it comes up.

 

Keep plugging away,   you will get there pretty quick.   At a week, stumbling around is expected yet.



#19 Sparky_NY

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Posted 31 March 2017 - 12:53 AM

Got a lot done.

Barrels modified,  threads turned off, stainless bushing pressed on with Red loctite, worked out well.  This was needed for interchangeable barrels / wedge mounting.

 

Bolt carrier done,  did 2pc, with 2 dowel pins in the joint,   did a 1 inch boss and pocket for alignment,   milled the hex and then broached out the 4-5 thou in the corners remaining.

 

Box cam blank installed, screwed in.   Stole the idea from someone on the forum, screw it in as one piece, later mill the groove and then the 2 pieces are all pre aligned.

 

Made a new cascabel back plate.

 

Made up a new front assy nut w/thrust bearing.

 

Reworked the DE equal to the cocking ring,  hole cut for bolt installing,  holes for cocking assy drilled.   Because the ring is pretty thick,  I put a ball bearing on the muzzle side of the plate and then the thrust bearing on the rear side.    Thinned the plate a bit

.

Modified the DE large gear hub.   Broached a 1/8 key slot in that  gear hub and the mate on the mainshaft.   This will give me about .150 adjustment room for headspacing.   The gear/hub is a nice slip fit on the mainshaft with the key for driving it.

 

REMAINING:     Bolts,   cocking assy, cut slots in barrels for mounting wedges,  make up the wedges,   a lot of finishing touches like cutting the barrel slot for the extractors and such but hell by then I am home free.

 

I am tickled at how its working out.   It rotates nice and smooth with the crank.   The hex mainshaft is a huge improvement from the DE 3 pc design.

 

PS,   the camera angles creates some illusions,   it looks like the feedramps do not center on the barrel chambers but that is not the case.   A dummy shell slides in every one without any binding or misalignment.

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#20 Sparky_NY

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 10:43 PM

Haven't updated in quite a while so its time.     I continue working on the gun and the end is in sight.      All parts are done except the cocking mechanism, cutting slots in the barrels for the wedges/extractors/firing pins and bolt insertion plug required for a test firing.    I made the cams this past week and now have bolt motion !     

 

 The barrels are not installed for the video.    I plan on doing the barrel mounting wedges next.

 

I can post pics of any parts of interest, just ask.     I tried to upload a MP4 video of the gun cycling but its says that kind of file isn't permitted.

George


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