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Extractor idea


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#1 Timcor123

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 12:54 AM

This extractor consists of 1inch long piece of .039 music wire that sits in a .045 slot machined into the bolt. The slot is on center line with the cam lug putting it 90 degrees from the firing pin. The wire is folded back against itself 180 degrees at the bolt face to form a hook that grabs the .22 rim. The hook projects into a .062 slot in the barrel. This of course means the original extractor recess is eliminated and barrels are cut flush. In a new build this makes things easier but on an existing build it requires an adapter ring which fills in the original recess and locks the barrels. This ring idea was posted some time ago but I am not sure by who. The music wire is fastened with silver solder at the point where the main bolt body ends.

A word of caution! I have only tested this idea in one bolt and have never had a failure to extract. But it is a very limited test. How well it will hold up is a big question. I welcome any comments and suggestions. I expect to have all the extractors in place in a week or two and will report back then.

Tim

#2 Sparky_NY

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 01:57 AM

A interesting idea.    I have thought the extractor problem over quite a bit and researched some other methods.   Nearly every gun out there has a spring loaded extractor finger.   Most of those have a pivot pin but not all.     Marlin had a spring steel flat finger with a circular clip that snapped around the bolt, much like the pocket clip on a pen.  

 

One normal requirement of the extractor, on most guns, is to hold the empty case firmly against the bolt face so it does not fall off until it hits against a ejector at its rearmost travel.   The idea is to not drop the case prematurely and cause a jam.      In the case of the gatling I don't think retaining the case is necessary, only long enough for the case to clear the chamber.

 

I am surprised that the wire you use, soldered at the end of the bolt has enough flex to "snap" over the round during feeding.   Also, the wire being so thin, I wonder if wear over time to the edge will be a issue.

 

How many tests have you performed?     Were they with rounds fired in the chamber?  (rounds fired in the chamber are tighter and much harder to pull out).   

 

If it works out well, its certainly a easy fix to a big problem.

 

George



#3 Timcor123

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 02:36 AM

The tests were done with fired cases. Not all rounds fired due to firing pin issues and .026 springs. I am still working out the firing pin issue but the extractor worked well. The spent cartridges fell away with no problem but like I said it was limited but successful test.
.045 wire may also work, and give better wear, but cold forming the hook may be an issue. Heating, bending and re-heat treating way be necessary.

#4 Sparky_NY

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 11:33 AM

Very nice !    As you have found out, misfires are the other big issue.    The accepted fix for that is non rotating firing pins with the end wedge shaped like most rimfire firing pins.         A pic of your extractor mod would be great when you get a chance.

 

Nice to see some action on the DE gun here.

 

George



#5 Pmercer

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 11:11 PM

What a great idea. Keep us posted on your success.

#6 Timcor123

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 02:23 AM

Update. All bolts are fitted and headspaced with the wire extractors in place. Feeding from a fully loaded magazine is problematic. Every round will eject if loaded one by one but, if the round ends up too far forward in the pan, the extractor pushes the round forward and the hook will not jump over the rim. I believe this problem also exists in the original design. I plan on changing the depth of the channel in the pan and maybe change the mid section angle to 12 or 15 degrees. The problem is exaggerated if the gun is tilted forward.

Does any one have any experience with this problem with the original design angles of 10 and 40 degrees?

Also, I would like to post a few pictures but not sure how. Assume they need to be resized. Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Tim

#7 Dave

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 09:09 PM

Large pics will show up as a big thumbnail. Click on the thum to blow it up



#8 Timcor123

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 12:09 AM

Well the long cold winter has given me plenty of time to work out all the bugs in this build with the music wire extractors. Today I was able to to get 15 rounds through the gun with no problems. This of course was the result of lots of tweaking, fitting and testing. Overall I ran a few hundred rounds to get to this point. I ran out of ammo after my final adjustment. The final solution required a new breech ring, recutting the barrels and moving the front cam to allow the spent casing to drop away earlier. As best as I can determine, my gun fires between 4 & 5 o'clock and extracts between 7 & 8 o'clock. Before I advanced the front cam, the spent shells would not drop away. The slight advance made a world of difference.

The slot in the breech ring/barrels is .063 wide and .140 deep. The new extractors are made from .045 music wire and are fastened by peening over the end after it passes through a .043 hole drilled 90 degrees through the bolt. The original design had the extractor soldered in but that took the heat treat out of the music wire. After A few broke off I came up with peen over idea. Now they can be replaced without soldering.

The gun is sensitive to ammo. Sub sonic or target stuff works best. High velocity CCI rounds were blowing out the cases in the area of the slot. Since the slot exits the breech ring there was no way to limit the extractor travel and a few blew right off. The breech ring could be filled in with a ring of brass material or a shroud could be attached under the gun to limit the extractor travel but it just makes sense to use the wimpy ammo.

#9 Sparky_NY

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 10:19 AM

To my understanding, the front and rear cams are nearly identical,  the gap between the two forming the track for the bolt lug to follow.    How did you get away with advancing the front cam only without the bolt lug binding up in its track/groove?

 

Back when I started the gun, I ran across a great sale on 22 shorts, high velocity.    You are not the first to have problems with high power shorts.    I bought 5000 of them.    Great    LOL

 

George



#10 Timcor123

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 02:19 PM

Hello George:

 

I was able to move the front cam about one half inch.  There seemed to be enough room and it worked OK.  I will have to look over the drawings of the original cams to see if there is a difference but to my knowledge they are slightly different.  My plans are old.  Maybe newer plans show them the same.  Anyway it made a big difference.

 

I tried to attach a photo of the breech ring with slots but it did not show up.  Not sure what to do about that but I probably need some instruction here.

 

Tim



#11 Timcor123

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 12:04 AM

The date of my drawing for the cams is 8/10/2002. The front cam measures 1.7" at its high point. The rear cam measures .9" so they are definitely different. Hope this helps.

Tim

#12 Roller

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 12:09 AM

Well the long cold winter has given me plenty of time to work out all the bugs in this build with the music wire extractors. Today I was able to to get 15 rounds through the gun with no problems. This of course was the result of lots of tweaking, fitting and testing. Overall I ran a few hundred rounds to get to this point. I ran out of ammo after my final adjustment. The final solution required a new breech ring, recutting the barrels and moving the front cam to allow the spent casing to drop away earlier. As best as I can determine, my gun fires between 4 & 5 o'clock and extracts between 7 & 8 o'clock. Before I advanced the front cam, the spent shells would not drop away. The slight advance made a world of difference.

The slot in the breech ring/barrels is .063 wide and .140 deep. The new extractors are made from .045 music wire and are fastened by peening over the end after it passes through a .043 hole drilled 90 degrees through the bolt. The original design had the extractor soldered in but that took the heat treat out of the music wire. After A few broke off I came up with peen over idea. Now they can be replaced without soldering.

The gun is sensitive to ammo. Sub sonic or target stuff works best. High velocity CCI rounds were blowing out the cases in the area of the slot. Since the slot exits the breech ring there was no way to limit the extractor travel and a few blew right off. The breech ring could be filled in with a ring of brass material or a shroud could be attached under the gun to limit the extractor travel but it just makes sense to use the wimpy ammo.

I use CCI CB shorts in my gun, they work the best.



#13 Timcor123

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 01:30 AM

Well I finally got a load of ammo in and ran a 150 rounds through the gun. It is working so well that I decided to see how fast it would go. I used the voice memo app on my iPhone to measure a 25 round burst, 25 rounds in 1.8 seconds works out to just over 800 rounds per second. This test was done without the oscillator which I am sure would slow the rate down. In a second test I had one fail to eject and one misfire. Needless to say I am very happy with this years progress.

Some modifications / specs on my gun are: Mid section angle of the pan was increased from 10 degrees to 12. The firing pins are 4mm square with striking end shaped to a .025 x .050 rectangle. Springs are .026. The front cam was advanced about 25 degrees to allow the spent casing to drop away earlier. The extractors are .043 music wire. There is a thrust bearing between the cocking ring and bolt carrier. There is a small ball bearing at the front of the main shaft that acts as a thrust bearing. CCI CB short or target ammo works best.

Since the weather has finally changed for the better, my attention has turned to pressing outdoor issues around the old homestead but I plan to continue with the oscillator and elevation hardware as time permits.

Tim

#14 Sparky_NY

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 09:59 AM

Great news Tim !      I would sure like to see some pics of the music wire extractors and any info related.

 

I just started building a 32x50 pole barn this week for a workshop at my new location in South Carolina.      Although finishing my gat gun is delayed, I am more encouraged than ever that it is possible to get a D&E design to be a reliable shooter with a few mods.

 

George



#15 Timcor123

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Posted 13 April 2015 - 12:42 AM

Hello George:

The last time I tried to post a picture it didn't work. Well here goes again. This is a photo of the extractor in various stages.

#16 Timcor123

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 12:41 AM

Photo post test

#17 Timcor123

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 01:30 AM

Photo test 2 Mobil ver

#18 Dave

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 12:55 PM

I cant honestly help you because your using mobile stuff. It would make more since to post it to photobucket or something like that and hot link it. Hell, email it to me, i'll post it


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#19 greenman3

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 03:59 AM

HI,

 

Have completed the gun, cant get it to fire consistently, I don't know why your pictures are not showing up on forum.  Have you made any drawings with dim, any good pictures?  I have a gun, carriage, and tripod mount that I have spent hundreds of hours on.  It fires once and awhile.  Can you make a video of all your mods?  Id be happy to help you post it if you can not.  I have 30 pounds of steel and brass that don't do much.  My gun is tru to the drawings but as you well know the functionality is garbage.  Id love to see what your solution is, I'd sure love to have a working gun..

 

I have attached some pictures of my gun.  I wish it would work :mad: too many hours for it not to, Plans screwed me.

 

My gun on the tripod minus the clip.

 

Hope to get the firing and ejecting figured out.  I really want to see your solution.

 

Thanks 

 

Kirby, Ohio.



#20 greenman3

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 04:01 AM

HI,

 

Have completed the gun, cant get it to fire consistently, I don't know why your pictures are not showing up on forum.  Have you made any drawings with dim, any good pictures?  I have a gun, carriage, and tripod mount that I have spent hundreds of hours on.  It fires once and awhile.  Can you make a video of all your mods?  Id be happy to help you post it if you can not.  I have 30 pounds of steel and brass that don't do much.  My gun is tru to the drawings but as you well know the functionality is garbage.  Id love to see what your solution is, I'd sure love to have a working gun..

 

I have attached some pictures of my gun.  I wish it would work :mad: too many hours for it not to, Plans screwed me.

 

My gun on the tripod minus the clip.

 

Hope to get the firing and ejecting figured out.  I really want to see your solution.

 

Thanks 

 

Kirby, Ohio.

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