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D&E Re-build


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#1 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:31 AM

I recently started my D&E re-build with the following goals. Re-use as many parts and materials I have from previous builds. Use the several improvements we have been discussing. Add improvements as the build progresses. Complete a gun that will fire 100 rounds without a misfire.
Roller has already shown that the D&E can be made to fire reliably. I especially like the color of his gun.
As I am now aware of the firing problems I started from the center outward instead of following the order of the instructions. I wanted to make the main shaft one piece so I could more easily mount it on my test stand. I made it from 5/8 chrome 1045 steel rod.
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I started by aligning the tail stock. As I was using a collet closer the tail stock was now not in line as it was much closer to the head stock.
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I turned and threaded the rear end.
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I added a brass capture nut to secure the parts.
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#2 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:38 AM

I turned and threaded the front end of the shaft. The measurements here will depend on the length of barrel you will use. I am re-using the barrels I have. They are a little shorter than the plans call for as I cut two barrel blanks from one purchased barrel. The shaft is not cut to final length yet. It has a center in it for testing.
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I made the front shaft from hex 3/8 ss rod. It is drilled out to fit over the extended main shaft. It is turned to accept a 3/8 needle bearing that will replace the brass bearing in the rail front. I added a small brass thrust washer.
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I added a brass collar to the shaft. The first steel collar I made did not have enough material to true it to the shaft so I replaces it with a larger brass one.
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Truing the collar to the shaft.
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I test fitted the parts and found I had to clean the threads.
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#3 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:42 AM

The assembled parts including the three piece thrust bearing and the ball bearing that fits into the cocking ring.
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#4 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:11 AM

The barrel ring per drawings.
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The pan per drawing. I an using 1045 steel for these parts. The rim stop is brass.
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I made the bolt carrier two pieces. This was to shorten the length of the hole to be drilled. The instructions say to peck drill but I found this not to be accurate. I center drilled, then drilled progressively larger holes. I finished off with an extended end mill. The rear of the bolt carrier is bored to receive the three piece thrust bearing. One washer of the bearing replaces the spacer, detail 18, page 10.
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I made an arbor to aid in the indexing of the parts. It has a key way in it.
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#5 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:13 AM

Cutting the key way in the main shaft.
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The arbor in the dividing head.
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#6 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:13 AM

The plans and the instructions call for the parts to be held in place by tightening the nut, bottom of page on page 11,to the main shaft, detail 17 on page 10, with the alignment as shown on detail A on page 11. This will not work as the parts will move in use. Also the alignment of these parts is critical for the firing of the gun. I first pinned the parts together but found this not to my liking.
I used a 1/8 key. After machining the parts to size I broached in a key way. The key way was used to index the parts on the arbor.
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The center of the barrel ring and pan holes is .077 to .080, as shown on page 19 detail D-D, off set from the center of the bolt carrier. This was easily set as it was one turn of my dividing head. This one turn is not exactly .080, it is a little more. But this allows for the firing pin to squarely strike the rim.
Key and key way in main shaft.
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Pan and lower bolt carrier aligned with key.
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When machining the pan do not forget to relieve the top edge 24 degrees as shown on page 7,
detail 12. This aids in feeding and ejecting the round.
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Parts aligned and assembled on the one piece shaft.
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#7 Cutter

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:51 PM

Steve,
I commend you for your tenacity.
I've been in the hobby since 1997 and know of hundreds
who have started, but only a few reach the end.
Good luck
Jerry

#8 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:44 PM

Center drilling
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Roughing out the hole
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Finishing the hole to size with an extended end mill, I did not ream the holes as they will require filing and polishing for correct alignment after assembly.
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Milling the groove in the upper bolt carrier
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Turning the upper bolt carrier to finish size
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Attached Files



#9 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:56 PM

Machining the groove in the pan. I roughed out as much as possible with a square end mill. Then finished with a ball end mill.
The instructions call for a .270 dia mill but I used a .250 and made several passes.
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I moved the dividing head to 10 degrees and 50 degrees and continued.
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I found that removing the milling marks with a file worked best.
The purpose is to make all tool marks in the direction of the cartridge travel.
Any mark left by the end mill will affect smooth movement. Polishing will come later.
I made a die filer. I used a 1/4 round chain saw file.
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I used a new motor from Surplus Center but it would not start. I disassembled it and found that several of the wires in the start circuit were broken. I repaired these and them found the start capacitor was burnt. I need to replace it with the proper sized one. It seems this motor was used and allowed to over heat?
Removing tooling marks in the pan.
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I set the table over 10 degrees and 50 degrees and continued to file.
I did the same with the lower and upper bolt carrier. This will take some time.
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#10 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:35 PM

I am trying to build more than one gun.
The filing is going slowly because of my hands.
I have difficulty holding on to things for a long period of time.
Draw filing the perimeter of the pan.
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While resting I made a modification to the D&E test stand.
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I added hinges to be able to observe the action as the bolt closes.
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#11 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:05 PM

Tilting the test stand allows a direct view of the bolt when firing.
I did this so I am able to measure the head space.
It will also allow direct view of the extractor.
The bolt shown here does not have an extractor.
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I made a spanner wrench to tighten the closing nut.
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Wrench, nut and shaft.
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The nut sets in a recess in the upper bolt carrier.
The nut and the land on the shaft are turned to be flush.
One of the thrust bearing washers rests on this land.
I did not turn the shaft and nut at first. I found a little roughness as the shaft turned.
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#12 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:30 PM

I really like the color of Roller's gun.
I took one set of the bolt carrier parts and flame colored them.
I quenched them in clean oil. They came out a nice black.
I was pleased until I started to handle the parts.
The color began to rub off in places. I did not do it correctly.
Parts were not clean it places.

One nameless post from the past mentions heat treating.
I made the parts of 1045 steel so I could try hardening.
I thought I could do it by flame but now I know I will need an oven.
This is defiantly out of the budget. Wait a minute, do I have a budget?
There are many things I regret doing. I had a broken blacksmith forge.
I sold it because I did not think I would have a use for it.
It would be good for this heating but I do not think I would have liked to repair it,
find the coal and fire it up outside in the winter. Who knows?
A few beers would probably have helped.

I have used black oxide kits from Caswell and Eastside.
I will got with one of them for the coloring.
Will start looking for a furnace that I can not afford.

#13 Roller

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:26 AM

Steve,

Looks like your making great progress! Love the photos! I blued my gun with a cold blue from Brownells, Oxpho 7, it came out almost back, but was very easy to apply.

Frank

#14 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:16 AM

Hey Roller,
I agree with Sparky that your's is the first D&E gun to post a reliable firing.
My color scheme is going to be a brass body and exterior parts.
Black interior bolt carrier parts.
Natural steel frame.
Blue barrels.
I have used Eastwood black oxide kit. I do not like the spray sealer.
I am going to try Caswell black oxide kit with liquid sealer. Says it leaves
an oily surface for a few days.
I have Brownell bluing 44/40. The liquid works better than the cream.
The cream I like but it does not get as dark.
I like the flame coloring because of the cost.
I also like fire.
Will probably leave the bolts natural.
I am going to experiment with Caswells Plug n Plate electro plating with the holes
in the bolt carrier and pan in place of hardening the parts.
The object is to reduce the friction as much as possible.
That is also my reason for using bearings.
I like the three piece thrust bearing .
The needle bearing in the front does not seem to add any improvement
The added brass thrust washer does help.
I am planing on taking some torque measurements later to see if they are really an improvement.

#15 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:31 AM

Cutter,
My former wives said I was 'just too damn stubborn'.

#16 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:15 PM

Got tired of filing parts. Went on to other projects while waiting for
materials to arrive.
Could not get my truck to start for a week.

I had accuried a steel table with an old lathe attached to it from a man
named Murry. Very interisting man. Lots of stories of laying cable in the
swamps of Texas and Louisiana for the infamous Exon. He pass at 84 with cancer
and much pain. What a loss. Not even his son was interested in learning about his
metal working skills. He sold me an old Rhodes slotter for a song just to have someone use it.
He had another lathe I wanted but by the time I had saved the money he was gone
and so was the lathe. So was most of his other metal working tools.
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The lathe on the table is a Craftsman 101, missing lots of parts. I decided to repair it.
I replaced the missing motor with variable DC. I added a variable DC to the lead screw.
I made all the missing parts. The purpose was for barrel making. I set it to taper the
barrels by off setting the tail stock. This way I would not tie up my other lathe.
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I had all the same problems that Pmecer had when tapering. The first one turned well
for about 2/3 the length then would not stop with the chatter. The second went for
only an inch. I stopped and made a 4 point steady rest with bearings. This helped
until a closer look. There were still deep chatter marks under the smooth surface, Also it
was difficult to keep the barrels straight. One other thing was the great amount of heat.
One such barrel expanded to the point of scaring the dead center.
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I stopped and made a small cooling system with an aquarium pump. I used the formula
for water soluble oil of 4 gals water, a qt of oil and 3 cups of liquid soap. This formula
needs a little adjustment. The pump has a magnet as the armature. Any amount of
swarf on it will cause it to stop. I made a filter of an old sock and a coffee filter and loctite
the magnet to the plastic pump fins. Works much better but the coolant is still to thick.

I noticed that by placing my fingers on the barrel it would stop humming. I made a spring
loaded finger. It did not help. I made another one with 3 fingers but it did not help either.
No pictures of it.
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I ground different shapes of cutting tools. The best seemed to be a 1/4 hss tool with
a 1/8 radius. Until I tool it off for inspection. Chatter.

After sacrificing 6 barrels I stopped and switched over to a tool post grinder I made
before I knew what angular contact bearings were. I remover the steady rest and
tried to grind out the chatter marks. This worked except now I had under sized barrels
with flakes that look like the orange peal of a bad lacquer finish.
Grinding also produced much heat. I used the coolant while grinding.
Also seemed to improve the finish but it is hard to tell. I am trying
to produce something that will blue nicely.

This grinder is an awkward monster. I made it because I had just made a dovetail slide
as an exercise and needed a use for it. The spindle is of my awkward design and uses
plain bearings. I am going to disassemble the grinder and reuse the parts for something
else. The slide works great, though.

I stopped grinding and started making a proper tool post grinder using the proper bearings.
I will go back and double check the lathe for run out and rigidity.

I would ask Cutter how he achieves the finish on his barrels but I already know the answer.
MAGIC.



#17 Cutter

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:15 PM

Hi Steve,
What barrels are you starting with ?
Blanks, take-off, new,

#18 Pmercer

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 02:29 PM

I shaped my barrel only 100 mm at a time. I then did full length cuts of 0.1mm off the diameter at a ridiculously slow feed rate. Each cut of a 14" barrel took something like 20 minutes! There wasn't any chatter doing it this way.

Hope this helps

#19 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 07:40 PM

Hey, Cutter,
The barrels are Brownell's liners.
The ones I am testing are damaged, either too short, etc.,
or from my acid event.
After doing more reading it seems that there are
many inventive solutions to this venerable problem.
One guy uses a hunk of lead he holds with his left hand
while oiling with his right. Who is operating the lathe?
The younger guys are using a spring loaded skate board wheel.
Multiple passes. Flip end for end.
The big boys use hydraulic followers.X generation is using
computers and stepper motors. And more. Grinding, belt sanding.
The old timers used a hinged piece of white oak. It had to white.
I am going to rework my 4 spring follower with stronger springs
just for the hell of it.

#20 Steve McKuhen

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 07:41 PM

Pmercer,
I am going to keep trying
till I get it right.




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